Recent Entries Friends Archive User Info Tags The Scriptorium -- Rum, Sodomy and the Slash by Marna, Skud, Diane and Black Hound.
 
 
 
 
 
 
I nearly think there is a thing about slash vs het going around again. I avoid these discussions, as a rule, because really, I'm not interested in 'which is better/cooler/possessed of more literary merit', and it always seems to go there.

I don't need to go there. The butterfly of cool looks different to everyone, and my likes and dislikes are mine. I consider them entirely defensible, I'll happily discuss them, but (barring the odd bit of overenthusiastic pimpage, and aren't we all prone to that?), I don't need people to share them, and get quite irked when people assume that I'm talking about something because I'm trying to force them to get on board with me, instead of because, you know, I talk a lot.

(If you WANT my opinion, it's this; Genres do not HAVE literary merit. Sometimes they CONTAIN it, and there is no genre that cannot be written in either brilliantly or vilely. Yes, including MPREG, so there *hugs Left Hand Of Darkness*. There. Them's my sentiments.)

Still, it interests me, this whole slash thing.

So I was talking to [info]quigonejinn about old porn and how it was constrained by censorship and how people had to be aware of the filters (the Classical Analogy filter, the Tale of Moral Instruction or Don't Do This Filter, the Art filter...) that people used and read between the lines and interpret the subtext and watch how words are used, and ...

IOW, you have to ... slash it. So to speak, because this is mostly het I'm talking about here. Not always (IIRC I was showing her the slashier bits of Hero and Leander -- which is het. Really, it SAYS SO. at the time), but often.

And you know, subtext is FUN. Sexual subtext is FUN, whether it's double entendres or heroic couplets -- or double entendres IN heroic couplets. Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's disturbing, sometimes it's hot -- sometimes all three. But it's fun; we get pleasure from it.

That's the root of a thousand million "I'm sorry, I'll read that again" jokes. It's fun and our brains are wired to find and enjoy sexual double meanings, in a way that is very different from how we respond to straight up sexual content. I recall reading something awhile back about lock-picking the pleasure centres of the brain; yeah. Like that.

And, you know, this isn't necessarily a slash thing; I think it's an erotic fanfic thing, or just a fannish thing.

You know, there's porn out there, there's all sorts of porn out there and lots of it is very good, actually.

We could just go find it. And we do, in increasing numbers, but we still keep going back to the stuff that makes us do the work. Because the work is fun.

Slash has an extra layer of fun, at least for me: the pleasures of the perverse. (I don't mean perverted, as in sexually, I mean perverse, as in 'willfully perverse'.)

When we pick up on het subtext, I think the way it feels to the brain is usually that we're solving the puzzle, doing what people have always done reading porn. Finding what the creator hid there.

With slashy subtext (and maybe with rare het pairings, cross generation pairings, or some of the more exotic cross species stuff in the SF fandoms) there's a feeling of having rebuilt the puzzle. We're finding what by and large wasn't supposed to be there. Hacking the system.

They're both fun ways to play the game. Some people like one more than the other, lots of people like both. I like both, but let's face it, by experience and inclination I'm a system hacker, a rock-tossing anarchist.

Therefore, I slash. Or something like that. It's an interesting possibility, anyway.

ETA: [info]fairestcat very kindly linked back here, and there's an interesting conversation going on over there as well.
 
 
 
 
 
 
It's really difficult for me to view "Left Hand of Darkness" as MPREG. They're not human. They're people, but they're not human.

Now, "The Child Garden" has actual MPREG in it, and I did not like that aspect of the story very much at all. I mean, sure there is literary merit in some stories about males being pregnant, but MPREG by and large is a fetish, and being as how it's one I don't have and don't get, I don't care for it. (It probably doesn't help that for Various Personal Reasons you already know and I don't think I want to explain to everyone who reads this, I don't particularly enjoy stories about pregnancy no matter who is having the baby. Alas.)

But that's really a digression, because I think you are onto something with this subtext thing. All of the chan and Malfoycest that I have written feels like this--like something I've hacked, that wasn't supposed to be there, that was there. I mean, the Tom/Lucius, as an example--okay, so if there's none of that and never was, why exactly does Lucius Malfoy have all of Tom's old school things? Lucius is far from the most trusted of Riddle's followers; he's very clearly out for himself and not too happy to have been forced back into fighting for a losing cause. Clearly there's some really deep, old tie running between those two men, they were very close once--is it so very odd of me to think that perhaps seduction at an early age might be what blinded Lucius to Riddle's inconsistencies and idiocies?

And I don't know how you can read Osler's recounting of the relationship between Cole and Pellew as young men and NOT see something slashworthy there. That's just so beautiful.
It's really difficult for me to view "Left Hand of Darkness" as MPREG. They're not human. They're people, but they're not human.

I'm ... sort of with you, sort of not. The characters aren't human, but the readers are, and Le Guin is where I got the useful notion that whenever or wherever you're writing, you're also and always writing about the place you live and the people you live with. But as you say, it's a side-issue.

All I'm really saying is that I don't think it's a WRONG classification to stick both it and fannish MPREG in the same genre. There may be better ways to cut the pie. :)

But ok, how about ... is it Enemy Mine?

And I don't know how you can read Osler's recounting of the relationship between Cole and Pellew as young men and NOT see something slashworthy there. That's just so beautiful.

*nods* And there's a perversity there, too: not only in foregrounding it, but in valorising and admiring it.



I don't think I know Enemy Mine. But I've certainly seen actual, honest-to-Ghu MPREG in published SF. The Child Garden is just the first one that comes to mind, because it's sitting on a shelf two yards away. And there was a whole story arc of Alien Nation in which there was MPREG--though George was not a human male, and there were three genders, George was in fact male, and not just temporarily.

I know that some of who and where you are is going to seep into whatever you're writing--for one thing, it's difficult to imagine how Very Advanced Technologies, whether arrived at by means of the scientific method or eye of newt and tooth of bat, will affect human psychology. But I very much disagree that everything I write has to be about the here and now. If I wanted to write about here and now, I would. That's altogether too close to 'all writing is a political statement' and you know how I feel about that one.

But I agree with you about the perverse wilfulness of loving and honouring young!Edward's boyloves. Now if only I can get that story into words.
*nods* say, rather, 'inevitably at least somewhat about, and entirely for'.

After all, as I'm always saying, I can't mail my stuff to 1800.

But I think we're only disagreeing very slightly. More later, maybe, when I'm done having my bath.
(PS, in case it doesn't really show, reading the news has just sent my adrenalin through the roof. Don't trust a WORD I say for at least an hour.)
Last bit of the digression:

Yanno, I'm thinking now that it's not MPREG, not for that reason at all but for another one: the world's not turned upside down IN THE STORY. On a meta level, maybe, but not in the narrative.

To the degree I can read MPREG sympathetically, it's for the World Turned Upside Down factor, the general and social: the other angle that I think makes it resonate with people, the angle of problematising the personal experience of pregnancy by putting it on a character who has no social conditioning for it, though it's sorta neat, isn't my squid at all.

And World Turned Upside Down I can get by reading genderswop, so I read that instead. :)

There's some WTUD in slash and rarepairings, too, but it's less of a factor, I think.
Because talking to you makes me think about this, you get the spam. XD

1. On why I like slash: for me, it has less to do with how I get the stuff and far more to do with the content. I'm a pretty small-minded person -- I like devotion. I like relationships that encompass a non-personal element. I like long relationships that are sustained over time. If the relationship has elements that pull my fannish chain, I'm gonna go for it whether it's text or subtext, slash or het. My fannish activities where I'm digging for information or trying to link up events all point to me trying to get to that CREAMY DELICIOUS NOUGAT rather than the joy of digging or linking.

And because I'm a nosy bitch -- how much does your interest in slash-because-it-is-subtext inform your fic-writing?

2. I've been thinking about why old-school literary porn tends not to do it for me, and part of it is, admittedly, that it's linguistically difficult for me. Wading through the synonyms and the contractions and the puns and archaic words just makes my head hurt, and it doesn't give me the emotional payoff that it seems to for you.
And because I'm a nosy bitch -- how much does your interest in slash-because-it-is-subtext inform your fic-writing?

Oh, a lot.

I love slipping stuff in sideways, little allusions, tiny glances and word choices that slowly nudge the reader where I'm going -- or where I'm not going, if they like.

But it's all full of little cookies, and I slide them in there and grin and rock myself gleefully when people find them, and if they don't? well, hopefully the story's still there for them, because you can overdo that stuff. The story has to stand up as narrative.

Cause, yeah. I write what I'd like to read, and I love it when stuff sneaks up on me.
Idle sort of related question -- do you like puns?

I'm mildly curious to know if the two things are at all related.
I'm fonder of them in conversation than in literature. They're usually pretty available to me after that little beat where everybody is like OMG DID HE JUST SAY WHAT I THINK HE SAID? :D :D :D if the pun has been an effective one, but the complicated, arcane sprawly ones in some literature leave me befuddled and filled with the urge to beat some sense into the writer.

You can blame Eliot's poetry, in a way, for a lot of my prejudices against certain kinds of writing. They were the first Real Literature that I absolutely adored, and I totally imprinted on how they set out this incredibly rich, symbol and allusion filled world in a language that looks and reads plain.

I was looking at Gerontion this morning, and God, how I love the first few stanzas of that poem.
On why I like slash: for me, it has less to do with how I get the stuff and far more to do with the content. I'm a pretty small-minded person -- I like devotion. I like relationships that encompass a non-personal element. I like long relationships that are sustained over time. If the relationship has elements that pull my fannish chain, I'm gonna go for it whether it's text or subtext, slash or het.

That? Is so me.

(and I have to admit I'm somebody who actually doesn't care much for snark or double entendres; It's just not my thing.)
With slashy subtext (and maybe with rare het pairings, cross generation pairings, or some of the more exotic cross species stuff in the SF fandoms) there's a feeling of having rebuilt the puzzle. We're finding what by and large wasn't supposed to be there. Hacking the system.


I like this *very* much. For one thing, it helps me make sense of a phenomenon I experience occasionally and which I am apparently not unique in experiencing, namely, a slash vibe from a het couple.

I briefly mentioned Menolly/Robinton on a slash list once when we were talking about the slashy hints in White Dragon, and collected half-a-dozen OMG's from fellow pervs whose books fall open to the page where they recognize and refuse to act on their requited feelings.

I just started watching House, and he and Cuddy have the same snark!love (well, so far anyway) that I adore in my favorite slash pairings (e.g. Legolas/Gimli, Spock/McCoy). I used to occasionally get that vibe from Josh and Donna ["if you were in the hospital I wouldn't stop for a beer...if you were in the hospital I wouldn't stop for red lights..." got me right *there* (in the *heart*, you pervert [g]!)]

So thank you... I enjoyed this, and it added a useful bit of insight to my brain.
I love that you mentioned rarepairs, because that's it exactly. With me, it's not strictly slash... it's just uncanon pairings, for the most part.

It's also why I love crossovers, when they're done well. There's a puzzle involved in making the crossover itself work, let alone the pairing.
Here via [info]metafandom, and I just have to say, I never thought of Left Hand of Darkness as mpreg. I seriously need to reread that. Excellent selection to illustrate your point!

And this:

+++With slashy subtext (and maybe with rare het pairings, cross generation pairings, or some of the more exotic cross species stuff in the SF fandoms) there's a feeling of having rebuilt the puzzle. We're finding what by and large wasn't supposed to be there. Hacking the system.+++

is one of the best potential explanations for the allure of slash that I think I've read yet.